Looking at an XLII -- need advice

[SKYCHENEY]

We really like this 01 XLII and we were about to jump in when I started reading about the delamination issues. I have not checked the coach by thumping the panels, but the owner claims they are all tight (of course).

Since this coach hasn't had any issues so far (we are told) does that mean this one is good or can these panels just loosen up any time? Is it just a matter of time?

Would you avoid the newer coaches without rivets and stick to looking at an XL or can these be decent buses? I am torn. I like it but I don't want to buy it and turn around in a year or two and have to put a big sum into reglueing all of the panels.

[davidbrady]

Hi Skycheney and welcome to the forum.

I can say that delam factored into my decision to buy an H, but I also love the H's and always have. The stainless steel spaceframe is a big selling point as are the gargantuan pass thru basement bays. My family of six requires this kind of basement storage.

Back to your question. No one knows the answer. Prevost might but if they do they sure aren't talking. You have a few choices: 1) buy an H and forget about it, 2) buy an XLII that has had the rivet fix applied, or 3) buy a coach that hasn't had the fix but before you do take it to a Prevost Service Center for a comprehensive inspection and an estimate on the cost for repairs if required and ask Prevost how much they're willing contribute. Get it in writing. Keep in mind that Prevost is only offering financial help on coaches 10 years old and newer, and even then you may be on the hook for as much as $10,000 of the repairs.

No one knows what the conditions are that tend to lead to failure. Is it heat, humidity, vibration, expansion, flexing, materials, prep, or one or more of the above or something else. No one knows but they will tell you that they know. I simply decided there's too much to be concerned about already with bus ownership without the need to fret over detaching panels.

Some will say that if it's lasted till now the likelihood of a problem becomes smaller with every passing year, yet we know of coaches as early as 2001 and 2002 that have recently had the fix as have coaches as late as 2008 and 2010. There's even a report of a 2016 X3-45 at last years Tampa show showing signs of panel detachment. Prevost will apply the rivet approach to new buses if a new owner requests it. They'll even rivet the center of the panels if desired. That's something that the current rivet fix doesn't address. The panel can be detached at the center but Prevost only rivets the panel at the edges.

Besides, as pretty as that stainless is, it's a PITA to keep it looking that way!

[SKYCHENEY]

I spoke to two service tech and two different service centers. Both seem to think that if the coach is okay now, it will stay that way. But, I'm not buying it. Especially after speaking to an independent shop that has fixed a number of them. The owner there told me that its just a matter of time; all xl2's have the problem.

Consequently, I'm taking your advice and looking for an H. I don't want slides and I prefer a Vantare conversion. I just think their components are of the highest quality. Let me know if there are any out there for sale not listed on the common websites.

And, since you are a previous Bluebird owner, could you give me your impressions of the Bird vs the H. I'd be interested in the comparison in ride, space, systems, etc.

[davidbrady]

I love my Vantare, but you'll find that most folks will say the same about their conversions. I have two degrees in Electrical Engineering so it's the electrics in the Vantare that draw me towards it. It's a well thought out system designed by EE's. I don't know how many of the other converters have engineers on staff but my guess is that it's few.

The center of the Vantare electrical system are the 2 Trace SW4024 pure sinewave inverters. All loads pass thru the inverters. This means that everything in the bus can be driven with inverter power. Parliament also uses a system like this, but most of the other converters have a dedicated 120VAC panel for inverter loads and another panel for shore power/generator loads. Wanderlodge uses the dedicated panel approach. The Vantare approach requires the user to manage loads because the inverters are oversubscribed; i.e., there are 8kw of inverters but all the loads in the panel add up to more than 8kw. The advantage of the Vantare system is that I can power any load with the inverters but I need to make sure I never go over the 8kw available. The other approach, a dedicated panel for a subset of the loads, takes away that flexibility. In the dedicated panel approach I need shore power or generator power to power certain items. For instance, I can power my four cruiseairs via the inverters while other converters hardwire one or two cruiseairs to the dedicated panel. Some converters don't allow any cruiseairs to be powered by the inverters. They're all hardwired to the shore power/generator panel. To know your inverters is to know your Vantare. Remember too that Vantare sold each and every bus with complete electrical schematics of every wire and system used in the house. Only someone who's proud of their work will do this.

Blue Bird builds a good bus, but in my opinion they took too long to bring their basic platform into the 21st century. They finally managed with the M380 and 450LXi but those products were never completely flushed out. They only built 74 M380's and 57 450LXi's. For a bus built from the ground up some might consider them to still be in the prototype stage. Sadly the Wanderlodge factory is gone so these buses are what they are. The early line up: FC, PT, WB, and LXi are well developed designs but they're stuck in a time warp. Basic development seems to have stopped in the late 80's when Wanderlodge rested on its laurels while the industry scooted away. It was around then that the Prevost converters became mainstream. Prevost chassis development continued, continues to this day, and far eclipses the early Wanderlodge line up as well as the M380 and 450 LXi development. It wasn't until the M380 and 450LXi that Wanderlodge went to a Prevost style space frame using closed cross-section tubes. Up until 2004 all Wanderlodges were built with open section cross members; i.e., tophats, angle iron, c-channel, etc. These types of cross sections don't provide much in the way of torsional stiffness. The famed Blue Bird All-American chassis, which is what school buses are based on and which forms the basis of the early FC and PT's, is composed of thin wall sheet metal and 14 gauge open section top-hat roll hoops all riveted together. Under the passenger box is a truck style c-channel frame. The passenger box is bolted to the c-channel frame. This basic construction went on thru 2003. In addition, the suspension is by Ridewell. Ridewell with it's inboard mounted air springs and stick axles was used from 1963 through 2003 with incremental improvements. Consequently, the Wanderlodge lost ground to bus companies like Van Hool, MCI, Setra, and Prevost. There really isn't any comparison in ride, handling, and overall chassis tightness. I owned my Wanderlodge LXi for 10 years and for about that long I tried to get it to behave on the road like a Prevost. I failed. The Prevost is stiff, responsive, and has a one piece feel to it. I have yet to find any road surface that upsets the chassis, not true with the Wanderlodge. Traveling roads that I frequently traveled with my LXi are eye opening to me. The Prevost simply glides over anything thrown at it while the LXi pogo-ed down the road with me ducking to keep my head from hitting the ceiling.

Now, it is all relative. If I came from the Newmar, Tiffin, Allegro, the plastic motorhome world, I'd have a much different view of the Wanderlodge. When comparing to your typical plastic motorhome thrown together in 3 weeks the Wanderlodge shines.

As far as systems and electrics go. Again the Wanderlodge is lost in a time warp. Till the end of production they were still using modified sinewave inverters, 12V chassis systems (24V on the 450LXi), and a hodgepodge of distributed load centers most of which had evolved over time rather than having been well thought out by an engineering team. Then there's the fact that there's no factory backing you up. Owners require the forums to keep them on the road and owners frequently need to have components manufactured to fulfill their needs.

Having said all of this, I still love Wanderlodges. They're an American icon. They have and will stand the test of time as a true classic in the recreational vehicle hall of fame. But, much like Packard or Duesenberg or any of the other bygone great American automobile manufacturers, these buses are for weekends, parades, and rallys. For traveling cross country and doing it often I want a factory, I want a network of service centers, I want parts availability, and I want a world class handling and riding machine. I want a 2 million mile chassis with billions of miles of testing and refinement. The Wanderlodge is a great hobby, but for traveling give me a Prevost.

[SKYCHENEY]

Thank you so much for the comparison. I have an electrical background and designed my inverter system on my boat in much the same way. I have a 3.3kw inverter that can run any and all loads even though the entire system is set up to run off of two 50 amp shore cords. I understand managing and balancing loads. In fact, I have a 12v, 32v, 120v, and 240v loads to deal with. I also have isolation transformers that are capable of creating 240v from a 120v source or boosting 208v to 240v.

I'm not afraid of no factory support as I'm quite resourceful, but I do see the value in being able to order parts and visit service centers if needed. The ride quality, however, is a big deal. I have owned an old Eagle and a Prevost XL, but never ridden in a Wanderlodge. I actually found the torsion bar suspension of the Eagle to be a better ride than the air suspension of the
1993 XL.

I am going to look at a 2001 H3 Vantare on Sunday that is not too far away from my home. It has two slides and I'm not really fond of slides, but we'll see. The more you look, the more you learn.

[davidbrady]

Great Sky, let us know what you find out with the '01 H3 Vantare.

I'm with you on the ride and handling. I've never driven an Eagle but the torsilastic suspension has become a cult status online. Funny thing, all these Eagle owners are adding air bags to their torsilastics. Turns out keeping the bogie/tag axle supporting it's share of weight is much easier if the axle is converted to air. A simple air regulator does the trick. Also, in motorhome applications folks like the constant ride height of air and the air leveling at campgrounds. Prevost tries hard with their air suspensions. On my bus each air spring has it's own ping tank located inches away from the spring and connected to the spring with a wide diameter short length hose. The ping tank shifts the resonant frequency of the suspension and alters the damping. I don't know if this makes it as good as torsilastics but for better or worse air springs have become the industry standard.

[SKYCHENEY]

The Eagle's have the bogey axle as a pusher and not a tag. That may be part of the difference.

But, I drove that 01 H3 today. It just drives sweet. The ride was smooth with little bounce or sway. The steering was responsive and tight. I found myself driving with little more than a finger on the wheel on straightaways.

This bus had 365's on the steer axle and 315's elsewhere. The odometer read 103,000 miles; almost broken in .

It had two HWH slides and they seemed to work easily and I heard no air leaks while underway (I drove one way and had the owner drive back so I could inspect the inside while underway). Other than an annoying squeak in the overhead cabinet above the driver, it was very quiet. I'm sure that squeak could be found and remedied.

Now for other considerations. I re-engineered the door and rafters in my barn to accommodate the height of the XL years ago. It's 12'5" at the lowest point and I see no way that H3 will fit in there without some other modifications. I measured this bus at 13' even fully aired up to the top of the sat dome. The easy thing to do would be to look for another XL, but I think I'm sold on an H3 now. I guess I'm gonna have to sleep on this one.

[davidbrady]

Cool! The H is a fantastic bus, but I may be slightly biased.

Back in chassis year 2001 Vantare started making their own slide out actuator systems. These chassis show up as 2002 or even 2003 registration dates. Up until 2001 Vantare used HWH rams and HWH hydraulic actuators including hydraulic locking pins on a room that Vantare built. After 2001 they still used the HWH rams but Vantare developed their own twin electric motor drive system controlled by a PLC. The PLC drives and synchronizes the motors by sensing sensors placed along each ram. You can tell which Vantare's have the electric drive motors because they also added the skirts along the exterior sides of the slideout which hide the rams:

The other thing that Vantare did at around 2001 chassis year was to eliminate as many air driven systems as possible. For instance, on my coach the dump valves and interior pocket doors are motor driven. Vantare's philosophy was always to use d-bulb compression style seals around the slide body for weather protection. They never used a compressed air driven pneumatic seal. The Vantare approach requires an inner and outer flange on the slide body which then compresses against a d-bulb seal mounted on the bus chassis, one on the inside of the bus body cutout and one on the outside. (Over here I talk about the massive beams Vantare engineered to add strength back into the bus chassis). I had my seals replaced at DMRV (Donny Myers in Sanford Fl) for a whopping cost of $300 for the seal. You'll never hear of a Vantare owner stranded due to a punctured slide seal.

An item to check out on the 2001 and earlier coaches is the RVAC HVAC unit. At around this time Vantare switched to 4 CruiseAirs which is what my 2004 has. Prior to this Vantare installed 2 CruiseAirs and 1 RVAC. The RVAC was a two stage compressor split unit that provided around 30,000 BTU. The compressor allowed wiring to both of the 50A legs. The problem is that the RVAC is no longer available or supported. They do tend to have problems with their control boards and folks have had local shops rework the control boards with success. Others have swapped out the RVAC for a Coleman unit which happens to have basically the same footprint, but it does require extensive rework to the ducting which significantly adds to the upgrade cost.

The 365's on the steer and tag became standard on chassis year 2003 for the H and 2004 for the XLII. In 2003 the H also got dual pane windows, and 18000 lb steer axle with a dual power steering cylinder, and hub centered wheels on all axles. You'll notice that the Vantare H's have 8 Alcoa aluminum wheels. This was also special ordered by Vantare. Prevosts typically ship from the factory with an inner steel wheel on the drive axle.

[SKYCHENEY]

Thanks for that info. It really helps. I like that 01, but I think I'm gonna keep looking. It just wasn't the one that grabs you. You know when you just can't keep thinking about it. I'm sure the right one is out there.

[davidbrady]

Sky,

Hish has a very, very nice coach. It'd be hard to find a better one. It's in incredible condition. Hish has maintained it superbly and you'd be hard-pressed to find any deficiencies. Hish is an engineer and a pilot and has always been proactive with coach maintenance and records.

I want to add that while I like the electrics of the Vantare, the d-bulb compression slide seals, and the full schematics and documentation, there really aren't any bad converters. Country Coach, Liberty, Millennium, Vantare, Marathon, Royale, Parliament, and others all rank as among the best and will easily meet or exceed the house quality that we're used to in a Blue Bird Wanderlodge. Then there are the not so well known converters: Bruce Coach, Angola, American, American Coach, Thompson, Legendary, Custom Coach, Vogue, Panterra, etc, they too meet or exceed the craftsmanship that we've grown accustomed to in a Wanderlodge. There really aren't any bad converters. They simply differ in how they lay out their electrics, plumbing, the use of air powered devices, air conditioners, Crestron RTI, or AMX, Prevost slides, or Valid, or HWH, or Vantare slides, etc. The nits we pick with each converter are just that and tend to come down to personal preference. I have yet to step foot in a Prevost conversion by any of the above that hasn't passed the Wanderlodge bar in terms of quality interior layout, components, and construction. There are no bad converters. No one buys a half million dollar bus chassis and installs a sub par house. It's all at least as good as Wanderlodge and very often better.